34 comments on “WHERE ARE THE VOICES ?

  1. I don’t want to be cruel about Ray Robinson Rezinate, but do you think that it could perhaps be that he apparently died nearly 40 years old, no charges were brought, and there are plenty of other unsolved deaths in more recent years that preoccupy people more.

    Agreed, it is very sad that he went to participate in an armed siege and apparently did not come out alive, but are you really concerned about Ray Robinson, or is this just another excuse to go after AIM.

    I was fascinated by John Trimbach’s professed concern for Ray Robinson, who went to participate at WK in the fight against the FBI. No doubt in life,the Trimbachs would have detested Ray Robinson as much as they do any other militant there, but as he has died he is useful to John Trimbach as an anti-AIM device. Like Anna Mae Aquash poor woman.

    • Isobel
      Have you ever considered that the holocaust took place seven
      plus decades ago and nobody is letting that go? That war
      criminals from that era have never been given a free pass?
      That Bosnian genocidists are still being sought -Koby in
      Africa is still on the run?
      How about the Catholic Church being held accountable for
      the murder and sexual abuse of children from decades ago
      to the present?
      If you acknowledge in any way that Ray was at WK2 as numerous
      firsthand witness statements state you then have to acknowledge
      he was also murdered there, or in an attempt to cover for AIM say he
      just walked off and hasn’t been seen since.
      Either way that leaves you to explain Russell’s meandering soliloquy
      at the CST conference denying Ray’s presence-you’re also left to explain
      Carter Camps diametrically opposed versions of seeing Ray wounded
      but having to leave him to go man the barricades or that he never
      saw Ray.
      I’m “fascinated” by your attempt to minimize Ray’s murder by AIM.
      So in your unbiased and truth seeking opinion which is it?
      And I would ask are you really concerned about the truth or is
      your approach an attempt to go after those who are?

      Time is the qualifier? Perhaps you should explain that to Cheryl
      and his children, no doubt they’ll be greatly relieved.

      • It’s not up to me to explain Rezinate, thanks for posting my comment. I wasn’t there, don’t know what happened, didn’t hear about Ray Robinson until quite recently. It’s not a question of trying to minimize his death, you said why aren’t more people interested: in my opinion that would be because they have other issues which concern them more.

        You can scarcely compare the disappearance/death of one man with the Nazi Holocaust of several million Jews. It’s not a question of being unconcerned about people because time has passed, however in terms of your surprise at lack of interest in the site you mention, I would guess that is because most people don’t know about it and that other issues concern them more. There will be people specifically interested in what happened to Ray Robinson, but I would guess they will be in a minority. Which is not to say he didn’t matter, just realistically that is how people will react. Presumably.
        I believe a reliable source has acknowledged that Ray Robinson was there and was buried, apparently.

      • Well Isobel I don’t know how you be could so well versed and acknowlegdeable
        about AIM and only heard about Ray recently, Visit any site that supports
        Annie and WK2 is a topic that has been discussed for years-in doing so not
        only Ray but those numerous unmarked graves are invariably mentioned.
        If you’ve ever seen the Annie time line it’s there as well.
        I’m sure you’ve visited and seen these things on Annie’s page and the
        NFIC/ICT sites if not others.

        “You can scarcely compare the disappearance/death of one man with the Nazi
        Holocaust of several million Jews.”

        The history of AIM involves the murder of more than “one man” and despite the
        scale when people are rounded up, their property seized, their homes and
        village set fire and ransacked, armed “troops” patrol, intimidate, and dictate
        the “rules” of their communities and lives and then all this denied I say it
        qualifies as a holocaust regardless of the scale.
        I’d also say that the explanations, the defenses, and the evolving go to of
        it’s all somehow the feds fault and the perpetrators were driven to it amounts
        to little more than the Nuremburg claims of “following orders”.
        I’d say as well that what happened recently at Sandy Hook could be described as
        a holocaust. I would say what is happening with the commercialization and
        destruction of tradition and ceremonies could be described as a holocaust.

        “I believe a reliable source has acknowledged that Ray Robinson was there and was
        buried, apparently.”

        A little wiggle room in choosing to employ the word “apparently”-which “apparently”
        implies along with the word reliable that you accept the fact that Ray was there
        and was murdered.
        Now that that has been at least rhetorically established who do you say bears
        responsibility, who killed him? AIM who held and controlled the interior or
        the feds who controlled the perimeter?
        If you are compelled to say AIM then perhaps you can offer an explanation why
        Russell denied Ray’s very presence at the CST conference?
        I’m curious who you say is responsible for Annie’s murder? And in the midst of these
        murders how you would explain that any AIM leader would be unaware of them?

        “Apparently” there have been multiple murders-“apparently” these couldn’t have
        taken place without the acknowledge of AIM leadership. “Apparently” there are those
        who will deny it….the question is why?
        And since you will extricate yourself from answering this question with a statement
        that it isn’t your place to explain how is it then you think it is your place to hurl
        names and “explain” other things?

      • No one talked about Ray Robinson to be honest Rezinate, and it was not a name that came up in the years immediately following WK 73.

        I don’t know why you keep on saying you’re ‘sure I visited’; no I have not visited the ‘Annie timeline’.

        Regarding Ray Robinson, and others, you are making frequent allegations of murder. In the case of Ray Robinson it is quite clear no one knows exactly what happened to him. He went to take part in an armed siege, wild ballpark suggestion – given the number of FBI bullets flying around, perhaps a stray one hit him. He hadn’t been there long it seems, he was less accustomed to ducking than others.

        Or something else happened. I don’t know, but you label it an ‘AIM murder’ without any investigation at the time, charges being brought – you have no right to do that.

        You have found Russell guilty of a rape, resulting from an absurd allegation that sounds like some product of a totally bizarre imagination, mainly because it is, from a woman who has brutally lied about it. You are fully aware she has lied, and keep posting her comments anyway.

        All you have is rabid desire to go after AIM, regardless of any truth.

        You, plus John Trimbach, state that Anna Mae Aquash was murdered because she knew ‘secrets’. One of those ‘secrets’ according to your theories, is what happened in Jumping Bull.

        Look at the date she was murdered, and consider that she was arrested in the November prior to that. Had she known ‘secrets’ don’t you think she had ample time to divulge them, and therefore your theory that she was killed to prevent her divulging them is garbage. As you must be well aware.

        I am not replying to your query about who was responsible, that is not for me to decide. However your statement that all AIM leaders worked as one is rubbish and shows you know nothing about AIM.

      • “Or something else happened. I don’t know, but you label it an ‘AIM murder’ without
        any investigation at the time, charges being brought – you have no right to do that.”

        So now murder is defined as to when it is investigated? How about now Isobel- do you
        consider it murder now that it has been investigated to a degree? Do you consdier it
        murder when there are statements made by those who attest he was indeed there, shot,
        and left to bleed out as Carter Camp has said?

        “I am not replying to your query about who was responsible, that is not for me to decide.
        However your statement that all AIM leaders worked as one is rubbish and shows you know
        nothing about AIM.”

        Uh…the Mafia is defined by various factions-yet when it comes to “business” they often
        join hands.

        How very insipid-you offer replies and “decide” about everything else under the sun but
        none for this and multiple others-be sure to copy this for others as well.
        Your “theory” that Annie wasn’t murdered because of what she knew is another decision
        you’ve made-but consider the fact in AIM promoting the lie that she was snitch and then
        murdering her as a result of that what exactly in your estimation would constitute being
        a snitch?
        Would it be something so obvious as having information to offer?
        If so what sort of information would that be? Would it be about murders and criminal
        activities?
        Would this information be confined to when it was specifically related?

        “I don’t know why you keep on saying you’re ‘sure I visited’; no I have not visited
        the ‘Annie timeline’. ”

        Keep on saying? How many times did I say that, once? That qualifies as “keep on”.
        You haven’t even visited the time line -what else haven’t you selectively failed to
        visit? In failing to do so how is it you think you can speak with any kind of
        credibility-warrant any serious consideration? Or are you merely repeating what you
        are being fed?
        Had you of done even a minimal amount of homework? For example that the issue of Ray
        Robinson has been a long running one-which apparently by your own words only came to
        learn of recently-sounds like a page taken out Russell’s book-you know that one when
        Branscombe appeared on the scene and Russell said he had only “recently” heard women
        talking about Annie’s murder.
        If Russell was ignorant as not to know what went on within his own community, within the
        very organization he claimed to be the epitome of, then he was indeed a stupid man.
        More likely he just viewed everyone else as being stupid.

      • You seem to have changed your viewpoint overnight Rezinate, according to you, Carter Camp was unreliable in what he said. Suddenly, you’re quoting him

        You previously stated you were sure I’d read Helen Hagan’s website; goodness knows why you decided that on the basis that I disagreed with her here because she falsely stated that Russell Means and Dennis Banks are sociopaths.

        And re your comment about murder; yes, by law – I appreciate you seem very ignorant, people are innocent until proven guilty. You appear to like shouting ‘guilty, guilty, guilty!!!!’ screeching away at as many people as possible,with no knowledge of what happened. It’s rather like the Queen at the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party, and about as sane.

        Anna Mae Aquash was arrested before her murder and had plenty of time to divulge what she knew then. The suggestion she was murdered because of what she knew is ridiculous.

        She was and had been for many months, under suspicion of being an informant, and said she believed she was being bad jacketed. I notice you always hide comments when that is referred to.

        You may not be particularly bright Rezinate, and your comments indicate you’re not, but looking at an Internet timeline is a relatively recent device for getting information. Anna Mae Aquash died over 30 years ago. I don’t feel the need to look at her timeline.

        You’re a shrieking sensationalist behaviour doesn’t help her or anyone else.

        Russell was definitely not a stupid man at all. You, on the other hand based on your utterances here, are a very stupid man. And a very unpleasant one.

      • Isobel-if we are to reference the Mad Hatter’s tea party then one could say your
        portrayal has been that of the Mad Hatter, eternally caught in a time loop repeating
        the same actions endlessly.

        “Anna Mae Aquash was arrested before her murder and had plenty of time to divulge what
        she knew then. The suggestion she was murdered because of what she knew is ridiculous.”

        So are you intimating Annie was a snitch-that the “possibility” exists?

        “You may not be particularly bright Rezinate, and your comments indicate you’re not, but
        looking at an Internet timeline is a relatively recent device for getting information.
        Anna Mae Aquash died over 30 years ago. I don’t feel the need to look at her timeline.
        You’re a shrieking sensationalist behaviour doesn’t help her or anyone else.”

        Well, unlike Russell I’ve never attempted to portray myself as an intellectual member
        of a “think tank”-but then I’m not given to portray myself as anything other than what
        I am-a course if Russell etal had taken the same approach it would have benefited the nations
        and probably left them to collecting aluminum cans-or at least in Russell’s case breaking
        into homes. pimping women, and selling drugs as he stated in his book.

        I don’t believe, though I could be wrong, that your shrieking, befuddled, and error
        prone defenses do much to convince others you actually know what you’re talking about.

        I’ve quoted Camp on several occasions-his story changes, much the same as I have Peltier.
        A thinking person would take note that Camp’s claims of Ray not being seen by him are
        an evolution away from those made closer to the actual event-and a thinking person
        would understand why.

        “You may not be particularly bright Rezinate, and your comments indicate you’re not, but
        looking at an Internet timeline is a relatively recent device for getting information.
        Anna Mae Aquash died over 30 years ago. I don’t feel the need to look at her timeline. ”

        The timeline is anything but recent-and understandable why you wouldn’t want to look at
        it-what you fail to understand or chose to ignore is that it doesn’t matter when Annie
        or anyone was murdered-the fact remains that they were-and some consider that to be important.
        If you doubt that ask the survivors of the victims.

      • No I am not saying Anna Mae was a ‘snitch’, what I said was the theory she was killed to avoid her repeating secrets is false, as by the time of her death she had been arrested and if she was going to repeat any ‘secrets’ would have done so.

        You keep referring to her as ‘Annie’; if she was not an informant, then the person she was known as, a high ranking dedicated member of AIM, would have loathed you.

        What right do you have to refer to her as ‘Annie’, she didn’t give you that permission.

      • Childish and churlish Isobel ANNIE’S daughter has commented on this blog, in
        doing so never took exception to how I address ANNIE, so what right do you
        have to even open your mouth about this-did she or her family give you
        permission to?
        Are you an authority about what ANNIE would or wouldn’t do-how she would
        feel about something? Understood you apparently believe you’re an authority
        on most other things-but the wakeup call is you aren’t.
        If you look around the net you will notice some refer to ANNIE as ANNA Mae
        and others ANNIE Mae-creates a lot of people for ANNIE to loathe wouldn’t
        you say as by your “standard” there can only be one correct way?
        So you would present ANNIE as being such a small person as to loathe someone
        for calling her ANNIE-brilliant Isobel, you’ve outdone yourself-not an easy
        task.

  2. I would like to share my concern about an article which appeared in Indian Country Today regarding the support of Idle No More by ” Palestinians, ” The writer is herself fascinated by the Palestinian cause and the article cites “the great Indian leader Russell Means” as an authority on the question. I am appalled. I wrote a comment which so far has not been published. I encourage others to comment. Link: http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/palestinians-endorse-idle-no-more-146631#comment-79581 Happy New Year to you, Rezinate, and your readers. Our Berber New year is celebrated on January 12 according to our calendar and the coming year is 2063. It is called Yennayer. Happy Yennayer 2963 to all….

    • Thanks for the comment and information Helene- I will indeed respond to it
      and encourage others as you do to likewise. If Russell Means is to be portrayed
      as a great leader then I submit any photos in an Audubon book displayed as an
      example of ducks should be restricted to those of Daffy Duck.
      I’m very interested in the customs and beliefs of other peoples and was unaware
      of the Berber New Year date and wish the same for you.
      Always good to learn something new each day, good to be willing to as well.

      • I’m not sure whether Helene is commenting that it is wrong Russell Means was described as a leader or that it’s wrong he was described as an authority on the Palestinian issue. He did take an intense interest in Palestinian rights and knew many people involved. I think it’s up to the Palestinians to dispute that if they wish, not people who just happen to have an apparent vendetta against Russell. He was very well informed on the subject and genuinely concerned.

        That said, I didn’t know Helen’s background so was interested to read about the Berber New Year.

      • I think in the context of this comment and others Helene has made, the fact that
        she knew the players well-worked and lived(?) among them on PR her meaning
        is obvious.
        The question to ask of the Palestinians is which direction the “donations” flowed-
        to or from.

    • You are saying Russell and AIM ‘kissed Ghadafi’s murderous ass’; actually Russell after meeting Gadhafi formed the opinion he was crazy, very quickly.

      Tony Blair did indeed appear to kiss Ghadafi’s whatever, or at least appeared hugging him, and the US Gov viewed Ghadafi as an ally against al Qaeda.

      In truth, for quite some time, Ghadafi was treated as respectable.

      • Isobel-here is the exact quote-what Helene in fact said:

        “Russell Means and A.I.M sought the support of terrorist groups and individuals
        throughout the Middle East for decades, and allied themselves with Ghadafi ,
        kissing his murderous bloody HANDS that massacred so many indigenous people,
        in order to obtain funds.”

        I’ve added the caps for the word hands-most people are acutely or at least
        minimally aware of the anatomical difference between hands and an “ass”.
        Most people will be acutely aware of this “misquote”, some may say it is
        “vicious”, “crazy”, motivated by hate, “absolutely disgusting”, even off the
        “Ricther scale”, “bizarre”, indicative of a “rabid desire”, an “absurd allegation”,
        ad infinitum.
        Sound familiar? It should, though they compose only the short list of some of your
        more favored words, more favored expressions.

        This from another comment you posted this morning I am yet to address.
        “I am copying my posts in moderation to people incidentally, ultimately many will
        know that you are backing LBW in a deliberate and serious lie about Russell Means.”

        I trust you will copy the hands/ass comment as well for the same people and they can
        see the “deliberate” and “serious” approach you take, If not word will get out anyway,
        and those who can’t see the forest for the trees will be reduced as you have to say
        such words are actually supportive/complimentary/ and offering a defense as you did
        of sps’s words.
        They will see the deliberate and serious lengths you will go to in backing Russell
        and AIM. Ultimately I have to say well done for providing yet another example.It’s
        that contrast I spoke of that in the end serves to separate fact from fiction and
        define the speaker.

    • That’s an excellent suggestion Mary and worth looking into.
      I used to have a high opinion of DN and have made similar
      attempts myself-seems as though the standard may not be all
      that democratic though.
      It strikes me as the same fawning cowboys and Indians approach
      the media took at WK2-in this instance like then
      DN gets to rail at the government-more media worthy re attention
      than actually addressing the issues with AIM and Peltier as well.

  3. I left a message on Justice for Perry Ray Robinson, Jr. facebook page as well. I’m hoping they will or have contacted John Walsh (former host of America’s Most Wanted). I don’t really watch the show, but I’ve seen him interviewed and he’s is very well connected. His son, Adam was kidnapped and murdered 1981. He waited 27 years until a murderer was named. He doesn’t do the show anymore so he might have more time to devote to helping other families.

    As far as Amy Goodman goes she’s licking up the same tree as the all white staff at KBOO-FM here in Portland did. I volunteered there for 20 years off and on. They chose one Mohawk guy to fulfill their tokenism. And when he died they chose another blustery, self-centered, AIM-supporting do-nothing who is still entrenched there. (He occasionally doesn’t show up or moves or breaks FCC code, like dissing his x-wives over the air, but they always take him back)
    They once had a very down to earth group of two men and a woman from the community but they booted them out when the above came back. The only other time Native women’s voices were on the air was when I did an International Women’s Day special about 5 times during the time I was there. They were so anti-women that some years they didn’t have it. The last year I was there, 2001, I was told by a leftist, feminist, socialist that “Native American women are not international.” Well, you get the idea. I finally had enough and quit. (And I was involved in a lot more there, too. I trained as an engineer. I could run all the studios. I trained as many other women as possible. I edited, produced and anchored the evening news one night a week. I had a music program,much of the time with local talent on live. I did interviews with mostly women politicians and book authors.) In the name of free speech they let a cadre of sexist males leave nasty women-hating messages up on the bulletin boards. I’m not gay. I don’t have an agenda. I’m just a woman with Shawnee blood.The place was so sociopathic they once called in a workplace psychologist and after a three month study they concluded nothing could be done because no one would work together.

    • Mary-people will wear the title of liberal or conservative as a means of
      self identification-personally for me I’m not into such titles, and the mere
      fact that a person will employ one or the other doesn’t mean much to
      me either.
      Democracy Now promotes itself as both liberal and even handed, but
      increasingly that is looking like a misnomer.
      They prioritize to some degree view shares just as any other media source
      does-what they deem as current that will find and resonate with an audience
      apparently undergoes a calculation that involves those numbers and view
      shares.
      I suspect that having cultivated his “liberal” personna to be so “liberal” as to
      present an in depth and even handed examination of WK2, the murders committed
      there, the nature of AIM and it’s leadership, the murder of Annie and the direct
      involvement of those they have gushed over appears anathema to them.
      Having waited 27 years for closure in the murder of his son Walsh should have a
      profound understanding of what closure means.
      Another good suggestion and comment on your behalf Mary, keep punchin’.

  4. 1. I have been a member of the international Amazigh Movement since its inception, as a native of Morocco and a Berber activist since early 1980’s; I was a board member of the Amazigh Cultural Association in America for four consecutive years. I am the founder and Executive Director of the Los Angeles Amazigh Film Festival, a unique instance in the US, created to let Americans know about the indigenous struggle against Arab oppression in North Africa.
    2. I knew Russell Means quite well for 30 years. Among other topics of disagreement, the repeated alliances with Arabs at the expense of real indigenous people was something I brought to his attention to the very end of his life. As a matter of fact, my next to last message to him last summer was a reminder that joining forces with well known communist figures at a Conference in New York to indict Israel on the matter of Palestine was in my view morally wrong. I have consistently reminded him, and his brother Bill, that their alliances with PLO, and Hamas , both terrorist groups, were disgusting. When they went to Libya to seek money from Khadafi, I enjoined them to look up Imazighen (Berbers) of Libya and connect with the leaders of our movement there; they ignored that request, because, according to them, they were hosted and feasted on national television by the leader of Libya: another wrong alliance, in my view.
    3. As indigenous peoples of North Africa and the Middle East, most of us (I am one of those) have remained neutral in the Palestinian /Israeli dispute. However, ethically, we cannot endorse any assertion on the part of the Palestinians that they are indigenous peoples claiming oppression. They are part and parcel of the Arab domination and oppression of the whole region. They are Arabs. Arabs have claimed SUPERIORITY over people of color for centuries, massacred them, enslaved them, and denied them all rights. This is the message I have consistently shared with Bill Means when he goes to the UN, and with Russell Means who openly admitted his hatred of Jewish people.

    4. Below is in part what I wrote to the Editor in Chief of Indian Country Today. I hope it clarifies any confusion in Isobel’s mind.:
    “I would like to protest the perspective of the article you have published on December 29, 2012, as “Palestinians Endorse Idle No More”. It is authored by an individual named Gale C. Toensing, who is known to be part Lebanese/Palestinian and to have a fascination with the Palestinian issue. This article seems to indicate the support of Palestinians because they are to be compared to the indigenous people of the Americas in their struggle. In reality, the report is based solely on the testimony and words of a Canadian Palestinian individual, who supports the cause of Palestinian political prisoners.
    Historically, ethnologically, and anthropologically, the Palestinian identity has been established as a constructed one, of modern times. Therefore their “indigenous” status, when invoked, is a false one, fabricated from revised historical facts. Unlike other indigenous peoples of the Mediterranean world, the Palestinian group is composed of Arabs, from Jordan, Syria and other surrounding Arab states. Arabs pride themselves to be “white” as opposed to people of color whom they despise. They are also known as oppressors through the Mediterranean countries they invaded and subjugated by force. This article would want the readers to empathize with “oppressed people” deprived of their land, culture, etc… a totally false representation of Palestinian identity. In addition, it is really incongruous to use the name of Russell Means, deceased, as a “great Indian leader” in regards to this issue. Russell Means and A.I.M sought the support of terrorist groups and individuals throughout the Middle East for decades, and allied themselves with Ghadafi , kissing his murderous bloody hands that massacred so many indigenous people, in order to obtain funds. We , Berbers of North Africa, have sustained grave oppression and marginalization under that tyrant and other Arab leaders in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco and in the Sahara. We consider the Kurds and the Copts as indigenous allies in our struggle, but not the Palestinians. Berbers number over 30 million indigenous peoples in North Africa. “

    • Really appreciate this information Helene-your integrity and resume in
      speaking it provides a serious challenge to any who desires to question
      it’s authenticity.
      The Middle East is a mess, just as is every other place on the face of
      this planet-and it is always the indigenous who bear the brunt of it.
      Whatever “humanitarian” interests are expressed by global governments
      the underlying reality is it is about resources and geopolitical strategies.
      I believe all people should have a homeland characterized by sovereignty,
      that isn’t to imply it should come at the expense of others though.
      The second point you made about Russell and AIM is as true and accurate
      a one as could be made-it has ALWAYS been about money and media attention.
      they would have aligned with Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, even John Wayne Gacy
      if they thought they could profit in any measure by doing do.

      2. I knew Russell Means quite well for 30 years. Among other topics of disagreement,
      the repeated alliances with Arabs at the expense of real indigenous people was something
      I brought to his attention to the very end of his life. As a matter of fact, my next to
      last message to him last summer was a reminder that joining forces with well known communist
      figures at a Conference in New York to indict Israel on the matter of Palestine was in my
      view morally wrong. I have consistently reminded him, and his brother Bill, that their
      alliances with PLO, and Hamas , both terrorist groups, were disgusting. When they went to
      Libya to seek money from Khadafi, I enjoined them to look up Imazighen (Berbers) of Libya
      and connect with the leaders of our movement there; they ignored that request, because,
      according to them, they were hosted and feasted on national television by the leader of
      Libya: another wrong alliance, in my view.

    • Helene, my dear, I do have some ‘confusion’ in my mind.

      You stated just after Russell’s death how shocked you were by being told by someone at Pine Ridge when you were working there with elders, about Russell’s behaviour in the late 70s.

      But you produced his TV show much later than that.

      Care to clarify how you resolved these two issues, dear? As you may recall I subsequently said ‘Nice work Helen’ as you made a good living out of him from the shows, then shredded him after his death.

      Incidentally, anyone who knew him well would know he wasn’t a sociopath. And neither is Dennis Banks.

      Incidentally are you unaware of the allegiance of Western Governments with Ghadafi? Yes, it appears you are. But then you appear ignorant on a number of points, judging by your posts here.

  5. Rezinate, you are, as often is the case, absolutely disgusting stating that AIM would have allied themselves with Hitler, Stalin Idi Amin ‘and even John Wayne Gacey’.

    They would do no such thing. And try taking a look at who Govs in the Western world, including the US, will ally themselves with if it suits them, before you condemn AIM as well.

    You’re getting well off the Richter scale in terms of irrational thinking.

    • Isobel -this comment might have some coherency if you took into
      account the multiple blogs that have taken exception with national
      and global governmental activities-maybe just something you haven’t
      “recently” gotten around to discovering yet?
      I’d say people like Ghadafi, and organizations like Hamas and the PLO
      belong in the same lineup as Stalin etal,
      And while AIM didn’t serially murder people and bury them under their
      house as Gacey did, they did in fact murder people and bury them in
      unmarked graves- so I don’t see a lot of difference.
      I find it “absolutely disgusting” when any attempt to deny that.

  6. Helene, Thank you for your enlightening remarks. I don’t know how this fits into the regional politics, but I did read Stolen Lives by Malika Oufkir.

  7. Rezinate: I do not wish to enter into a prolonged argumentative discussion with someone who is unknown to me,i.e. Isobel, and who is not dear to me, any more than I am to her. This type of address is offensive to me, has always been, from the time I arrived to America, and I never fail to let persons who address me thus – primarily shop girls or grocery store attendants use this language – know that I prefer not to be called “my dear.” I do so each time. It is a form of “sugary” expression which would want to be condescending and which does not ring true.

    I never said anything approaching what Isobel pretends I have stated. I don’t know what she is talking about, concerning Russell’s behavior, before or after what? She is mixing pedals, and confusing the years and my relationship with Russell which precedes my arrival on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and continued over the years. When Russell went through some measure of therapy, long after I left the rez, he approached me anew in Los Angeles, and that is when I asked him to host a show I was putting together. Through the years, we never ceased to communicate, and visit. I began to criticize him publicly early in that relationship, i.e. with my well known “Mother Earth Letter” which he read publicly at Yellow Thunder Camp and on KIli Radio in 1983. It was not based on any conduct in the 1970s but on conduct I witnessed personally .

    The desire to muddle things, or to discredit what I have written may underline Isobel’s comments, but they appear pretty inept to me. If that person wants to appear sophisticated or knowledgeable, she is actually coming through as the opposite. I have never made a living out of any television show I created and produced. On the contrary, a lot of my income went to pay for them…. This type of conduct is probably not familiar to her… In addition, her remarks about Khadaffi are laughable to someone like me, a North African historian and anthropologist, educated on three continents, and involved in an international indigenous movement out of North Africa, including Libyan colleagues of high distinction.

    Rezinate, I would prefer if you kept me out of a personal exchange with that person. Thank you.

    • Helene-fair enough-references I have made to you have been an attempt
      to “defend” you for the most part-though it should be obvious to
      one and all you’ve said nothing that requires a defense, as Isobel’s
      penchant to “muddle” things has undoubtedly been noted by one and all.

    • Pity you made a direct reference to me in a post then isn’t Helene.

      I don’t like your backstabbing hypocrisy, nor do I like your arrogance in thinking you can dictate to the editor of an INdian paper, as a non Indian.

      Keep me out your comments in future, and don’t sulk if you mention me and get a response.

      I know quite a few Libyans, I also know others who have connection with Libya.

      The UK has just had to make a compensation payment to someone who was sent by ‘extraordinary rendition’ to Ghadafi’s Gov, as complicity with US.

      Surprised you don’t know that, as youjknow so much (you think).

      And lying too ‘never said anything approaching what Isobel pretends I have stated. I don’t know what she is talking about, concerning Russell’s behavior, before or after what? She is mixing pedals, and confusing the years and my relationship with Russell which precedes my arrival on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and continued over the years.’

      You said while working on Pine Ridge with elders, a friend of his told you, also a friend of his you stated, he got young girls drunk and took advantage. You wrote this on Dupree’s rape allegation topic. Seen by many and copied by me. No point in denying it.

      • Approved with the understanding that Isobel is being shown the door and it
        will be closed behind her-no more of her comments will be approved.
        I think all have had enough.

  8. No it was on the response to Isobel thread Nov, following Dupree’s allegation and my commetns.

    ‘Helene E. Hagan on November 5, 2012 at 7:14 pm said:

    This string of comments brought back to mind a conversation I had with an AIM member from Wanblee, and a friend of Russell Means. He told me that during the party times of Aim on Pine Ridge (the late seventies) , there was a custom, called “training” by those guys. The AIM game was to get young girls drunk and rape them , one guy after another, “train” fashion…… Russell Means was still drinking at the time, and partying with other AIMsters … This man from Wanblee knew I was also a friend of Means whom we discussed often enough.. Perhaps this heinous conduct has nothing to do with the rape reported on this blog, and on the other hand, perhaps it is all part of the same disrespect and abuse of women which characterized the American Indian Movement from the start and for years after WK2. I have a number of stories relating to this type of conduct , and reports that were made to me when I worked with elders on Pine Ridge… I wonder who would believe them….. Isobel, we should not be too quick to dismiss any woman’s allegation of rape, especially given the history of AIM, and the prevalence of rape in that environment, and in those days…. Both Dennis Banks and Russell Means acquired a reputation based on their known conduct…..’

    You were saying, Helene, you never said any such thing?????

    ‘My dear’ was meant caustically – you’re anything but a dear.

    • Approved with the understanding that Isobel is being shown the door and it
      will be closed behind her-no more of her comments will be approved.
      I think all have had enough.

  9. You are hilarious actually Helene; ‘ I do so each time. It is a form of “sugary” expression which would want to be condescending and which does not ring true.’

    You are an anthropologist and you thought I meant it to be sugary. Anyone with perception about human interaction would have seen from content of my comment, exactly how I meant it.

    Of course at the time you wrote that, you were very busy re-inventing what you’d previously said about Russ.

    • Approved with the understanding that Isobel is being shown the door and
      it will be closed behind her-no more of her comments will be approved.
      I think all have had enough.

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